- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
Stumbled across this quick post recently and thought it was a really good tale and worth sharing.
A couple of weeks ago, I saw a tweet asking: “If Linux is so good, why aren’t more people using it?” And it’s a fair question! It intuitively rings true until you give it a moment’s consideration. Linux is even free, so what’s stopping mass adoption, if it’s actually better? My response:
- If exercising is so healthy, why don’t more people do it?
- If reading is so educational, why don’t more people do it?
- If junk food is so bad for you, why do so many people eat it?
The world is full of free invitations to self-improvement that are ignored by most people most of the time. Putting it crudely, it’s easier to be fat and ignorant in a world of cheap, empty calories than it is to be fit and informed. It’s hard to resist the temptation of minimal effort.
And Linux isn’t minimal effort. It’s an operating system that demands more of you than does the commercial offerings from Microsoft and Apple. Thus, it serves as a dojo for understanding computers better. With a sensei who keeps demanding you figure problems out on your own in order to learn and level up.
Now I totally understand why most computer users aren’t interested in an intellectual workout when all they want to do is browse the web or use an app. They’re not looking to become a black belt in computing fundamentals.
But programmers are different. Or ought to be different. They’re like firefighters. Fitness isn’t the purpose of firefighting, but a prerequisite. You’re a better firefighter when you have the stamina and strength to carry people out of a burning building on your shoulders than if you do not. So most firefighters work to be fit in order to serve that mission.
That’s why I’d love to see more developers take another look at Linux. Such that they may develop better proficiency in the basic katas of the internet. Such that they aren’t scared to connect a computer to the internet without the cover of a cloud.
Besides, if you’re able to figure out how to setup a modern build pipeline for JavaScript or even correctly configure IAM for AWS, you already have all the stamina you need for the Linux journey. Think about giving it another try. Not because it is easy, but because it is worth it.
You must log in or register to comment.
I started using Linux as a liberal arts major in the late '90s. Both my grandparents (RIP) and my parents (partial RIP) kept having issues with Windows on their computers. I was constantly being called to help them with crap. 20+ years ago I asked if I could try something and they didn’t care, as long as it worked. Debian and XFCE. Configured their email, hooked up the printer. Suddenly the service issues went from several times a month to once every 5+ years. And 90% of those issues just was clearing out the printer queue. I have never once understood the LiNuX iS OnlY FoR suPer TeCH NeRDS bullshit.
You’re right in that case - most “granny” users just need a browser and maybe a printer. Don’t need Windows, you could probably run that on a Raspberry.
The catch is when they want more, like their VoIP App that only hat Mac and Windows installers, or some arcane HP scanner with 32 bit Windows 7 drivers. Or they are competent and want an actual full MS Office suite including Excel formulas and functions; Calc is still not on par. Or, kicker, if they actually need to exchange Office files with others without lossy conversions.
Everytime I’d installed Linux, I would run into having to run/copy paste random scripts here and there without any clue what I’m doing. Then after a few months it’s total carnage and I end up just logging into Windows. It might be much better now with LLM’s though. Also last time I was using my pc mostly to play CS:GO on FaceIt while chatting on Discord, which I was not able to do on linux.
because most people use what comes installed and apple and microsoft dominate that.
then again, considering apple is based on unix you could argue that anyone with apple does use a version of it
This is the obvious right answer. If computers shipped with Linux mint most consumers wouldn’t notice the difference.
What issues are you all talking about? I m a Linux user for eleven years now, the only issues you may have with them are only in the beginning when everything is not installed or sometimes not everything is perfectly installed and set up, once you finish with that you may get bored by how extremely stable they are, you just do your work and that’s it, and they stay like that forever, the only reason people are using windows is because they are pre installed, that’s the only truth.
To be fair, i installed linux on an old laptop and i just cannoy get the wifi to be reliable. I found myself reading about the minutia of intel wifi drivers and how wifi works in detail just to try tonsolve this issue.
I outright gave up on getting a printer to work.
This is an unrealistic experience for most people who just need a tool that works. Life is too short.
To be fair, i installed linux on an old laptop and i just cannoy get the wifi to be reliable. I found myself reading about the minutia of intel wifi drivers and how wifi works in detail just to try tonsolve this issue.
I had this exact experience. I tried multiple distros too. In the end I had to go back to windows because that’s the only way the wifi worked short of replacing hardware and it just wasn’t worth that.
A 5 to 15 dollar USB dongle was too much for you? There used to be a time when people understood they would need to buy compatible hardware for the OS. We’re not just talking Windows to Linux here, this same thing happens between Windows versions. Imagine switching to MacOS from Windows or to Windows from MacOS. “Guess MacOS doesn’t work on my Windows hardware. Whelp, back to Windows.”
A USB WiFi adapter was easily $100 at the time and besides, if I wanted to use dongles to achieve basic functionality I would have just bought an apple product.
Yep, makes sense. 1500 dollar Mac or a 100 dollar USB dongle. Logic checks out.
Little guys like this one were 5 dollars over ten years ago now. I know because this is the one I would tell folks upgrading from win7 or win8, to win10, to use when their wifi nic wasn’t supported. I also used them for my crypto miners.
Or he could just go back to an OS that works.
Thrse are real issues that block adoption of linux on the desktop. The answer isnt buy different hardware, its “how do we improve on things like this?”
Or he could just go back to an OS that works.
Shocking, use the OS that is compatible with your hardware. If you are on XP or Win7 and you want to go to Win10, guess what you have to do. Make sure you hardware is compatible. Same difference. If you want Win10, and your NIC isn’t compatible, you buy a new NIC. Nobody seems to complain about that. People want MacOS, they buy new hardware, no one complains about that. But for some reason, with Linux, “this free OS better work work with my cheap Chinese network card or I’m going straight to the electronics store and buying a Win11 machine”.
There are thousands of distros out there, pick another, I m sure one of them will work with WiFi just fine
See, that’s an adventure for months of late night tinkering.
Or just boot Windows and it will auto detect everything just fine. Done and done.
Not everyone is an adventurer. Most people just want to get on with it.
Lmao, yeah I love living like Indiana Jones! get real dude, we speak about a couple of hours work and that’s it
when everything is not installed or sometimes not everything is perfectly installed and set up
I guess that’d be a major blocker for most people.
Correct, and it’s the same for any OS, and figuratively every user. The average user has no clue how to install an OS nor cares to do so. Few people switch the OS on their phone. Few switch to Windows on a Steam Deck. Nobody it trying out different OSes on their SmartTV. It’s the tech nerds that install OSes, they are the ones that switch. That’s why it’s always hilarious to read them complain about Linux needing to be made easy to install for the “average” user.
the only reason people are using windows is because they are pre installed, that’s the only truth.
This couldn’t be more true.
The UIs and UXes in Linux are still shit and look like they are from 1998. Engineers are not great designers. I design UI and UX for windows and Android for a living. I’m not professionally educated in design, but I know how to make a GUI look like it wasn’t a collab by Mattel and M.C Esher for use on a museum computer. That goes for apps and system features. The Bluetooth device GUI in Linux Mint is fuckawful:
Being able to consistently install things by downloading an exe from a website and just double click it is lacking.
The names of Linux software are also regularly dumb. Trying to be punny, clever, or cool. If it resized images, just call it Image Resized For Mint or something, not “Nautilus” or Nemo", they are forgettable and tell me nothing about the app “Uhh, it was something ocean themed, I think”. (This is true of Windows apps as well, Audacity, Figma Director, and Irfanview, I’m looking at you)
Apps “forgetting” the last-used settings, inc last used save file path, or user config, is a common issue too. Out of the box, apps should remember last-used settings without having to be told.
Window focus interfering with key capture is an issue too. Use Flameshot (a screen capture app) to take a region screenshot of a right-click context menu in another app - you can’t. Greenshots on windows does it fine.
I still persist with Mint, but the process is further from ‘Seamless’ than even windows 11, the shitshow it is.
Maybe I just hate all operating systems.
Kde plasma and gnome both look good, cachyos also has a nicer graphical installer than windows in a live os environment off the usb, can basically test the plasma ui without commiting
Being able to consistently install things by downloading an exe from a website and just double click it is lacking.
This is something I still have issues with. I’ve been running Mint on an old Mac mini for six or seven months now, and still have to think to remember what flavour of Linux it’s based on when trying to install software.
Then there’s the way it has software installed via the store, Flatpak, and the terminal, meaning I have multiple places that need software updates. And that doesn’t necessarily cover OS updates.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Mint, and I do enjoy the tinkering, but I kinda go by the “Could I put this on my mum’s laptop without her having trouble?” rule, and the answer is no. It’s close, but no.
KDE discover is one shop for all. You do update system, flatack, snap, addons and more with it. There is nothing to forget.
We have appimages too now
i mean with debian based instances you can basically do that with debs.
Well…
I’ve never used Mint, but you don’t have to update in all those places. The system should cover it all for you. Even deb files you download manually can (if the developer does this) register with secure repositories to be auto updated by the system itself. You should be able to just download those and double click to install them. The software store will handle the install for you. Good example would be Brave Browser. It’s there, just not common to download .deb files manually.
Don’t forget the common use issues, where to put file for startup in different distros, attaching external drive being able to access in all and every Software without touching terminal, not too have to use terminal at all for ANYTHING IN 2025
IMPOSSIBLE! But shhhhhhh , we are on Lemmy if you say Linux sucks you will be negatively marked , cause Linux is the best /s , gained 4% market share and what not Linux for consumers SUCKS! NO matter the distro
I’m perfectly happy using terminal, both in Linux and windows. But not for basic things like installing a simple program. Sure I’ve done this in windows using wget or whatever, but maybe like 5 times ever? Like 2% of the time requires terminal with a 90% success rate on first try, and 95% success when trying for half a day. With Mint, require using terminal it’s like, 80% of the time, with a 30% success rate, and maybe 40% success rate after dickimg about with the errors for half a day.
Look, I don’t take preference with sides. Windows, Linux, android, Mac, I’ll happily call them all out on their various bullshit.
It took me a while to work out that the reason so much of Linux goes through the terminal is because that’s what the people who build Linux are used to. They put little to no effort into UX, then grumble that more normies aren’t adopting Linux.
I got my first Macbook in 2007, and honestly don’t think I touched Terminal for maybe four years. It just wasn’t at all necessary for day to day use. So having to wrap my head around terminal commands in order to do so much in Mint is quite a head fuck.
Linux UX philosophy:
So fix it.
I can’t code lol
Why not mock up a bunch of dialogs/windows that linux mint uses now and show how they can be made better, then submit to the project? I’m a software dev that is not all that good with UI; I can do amazing things in terms of coding them up, but in terms of “pretty” or “logical”, its not my strength and you just need to team up with guys who can code very well. Gnome looks nice, but is a terrible project. If I was a mint dev I’d love the feedback to be honest. Don’t go out and design a replacement for everything, start with a few of the worst offendors and be polite and see where it goes, you don’t need to code to make a project successful, we need everybody from UI to translators to testers to marketing guys etc.
I don’t know how to submit design or get involved, but if be willing to do that. Do I need to join a group somewhere, or what?
I’d be happy to spend my spare time trying to improve the UX if I’m not wasting my time. I can even show a portfolio of my currently in-production work, which only totals about 15 seperate software apps across windows, Webapp, and android, but it’s something
My day-job is 50% technical writing, mostly writing software specs, and 50% UI/UX design for custom software used by aggressivly non-technical people, like warehouse staff, truck drivers, mechanics and mining exploration drillers. So I have to treat the users gently by giving them a clean, simple and intuitive design with just the right amount of guardrails, but tons of customisable functionality just under the surface. Many of my apps heavily rely on Bluetooth connections, which is why I’m picking on the Bluetooth interface. Average users are very intimidated by Bluetooth.
Never trained in either tech writing or design, and I’m not a design guru, but I understand enough to build consistent in design principles, easy to understand and use, and have rich functionality behind them.
That’s exactly the spirit! <3
I don’t use Gnome, but I assume that in the Help menu of that window you will find contact information for the project. Submit a serious version of your image politely explaining the issues, and maybe if you feel like it a better designed alternative.
I imagine the author, who is probably a single person, would appreciate the feedback.
Tell us what a good UI is
I’ll mock something up later and share my design.
FYI I didn’t downvote you or anyone else, Im not like that. There is just some downvote goblins getting around this thread
Well android uses Linux I found out.
Yes, I think the biggest hurdle for Linux is the tech crowd giving it a reputation for being difficult
Fuck DHH
Why? I don’t know much about this guy
Shit like this https://world.hey.com/dhh/are-we-past-peak-woke-c313b7d1
Man, I wish the Windows-only shop I support as a sysadmin “just worked.” I spend the majority of my time troubleshooting random Windows issues.
Driver issues, firmware issues, Teams breaking, Outlook breaking, SharePoint and OneDrive sync issues, Edge freezing/crashing, UI scaling issues, routine updates failing, random connectivity issues, random audio issues, printer issues…
I won’t lie, my Linux computers have random issues too, but way less often than the Windows machines I have to support every day. And when I encounter the Linux issues, I actually can fix them in a way that is permanent almost always.
Windows on the other hand, I typically fix and then the same problem starts happening again a few months later after an update, or the only “fix” that works is restarting the computer several times in a row.
To be fair to the Windows defenders, Windows 11 has easily been the worst for this in my experience. Windows 10 was more stable, and Windows 7 was even better. XP had lots of random issues, but back then you could still get under the hood pretty easily and make Windows do what you wanted.
Every personal device I have runs Linux and has for several years. I removed Windows completely from my life thank God, and I can’t imagine going back. I honestly would be more likely to stop using computers altogether before I went back to the horror show that is Windows/Microsoft.
See…
The RTFM condescending, contemptuous attitude doesn’t help.
A lot of us are not teens, or 20 somethings, and have other responsibilities and duties.
We just want the shit to “Just Work.” We don’t want to research why the last version upgrade broke the graphics driver, or why our printer doesn’t work anymore, or any of that stuff.
Granted, the distros that try to fix this have advanced light years over the last actual 20 years, but it’s still not good enough.
And yes, I have my “Compiled From Scratch Arch” membership card. Never again.
Have you tried driving without learning ?
Have you tried not trying to funny? Because you are not.
Path of least resistance is at the electronics store and general support from marketed software. So lack of Linux hardware in stores and lack of well marketed software
20 years ago Apple at least had store presence and had their own software as major draws, Final Cut Pro, GarageBand people loved, and really as a brand MacBook’s are/were fashionable
Linux is widespread in software development and data science. It’s mainstream draw is still developing. Could be games. It could maybe someday be seen as the choice for content creators if the selection of media creation/editing continues to improve and have their Blender/Krita rise. Talking like Kdenlive, Ardour, GIMP, etc
Let them eat ads
What if I need a program that is only available for windows?
compatibility layers makes 99% software work
or try a virtual windows instance if performace is not critical
Yeah, but for non-technical people this is an insurmountable barrier. My aunt isn’t “trying a virtual machine”.
the setup is straightfoward
people are just allergic to the terminal
you aunt can get a windows instance setup by someone competent and use that instance forever
Yeah, but not everyone has someone to help them, and many people will prefer Windows for the simple reason that it doesn’t give them problems they need to seek help about, even if the problems have good solutions available.
If such an awful thing ever happpened to me in my personal life I’d change my needs.
In work of course I’m fucked, by stupidity rather than needs of course, but at least that’s only for 37.5 hours a week.
I’m in the same boat, adobe can get fucked
The app may be windows only, but it can often help to ask for alternative. And not things like “What can I use in Linux that is the same as <app> under Windows”. More along the lines of “I need to create or do <x>. In Windoze I used <app>, how do I get the same work done under Linux”. Sometimes you don’t have much of a choice, go emulation layer or VM, but often you can find a different path to the same result and once you get used to it, it’s a better solution.
- You may not actually need that app. There are many alternatives to Windows-only apps. 95% of the time, I use those. Web apps or Linux native apps.
or 2) you switch back to Windows when you really need that one app. Odds are, over time, you realize it’s actually #1.
Like what? They all have linux versions, alternatives or work with wine, the main issue is sub based window ones since the way they verify licenses often has issues with wine. Im assuming you’re missing out on adobe or autodesk stuff?
If the programs cpu heavy its suprisingly not that hard to setup windows qemu whatever its called, it opens windows app as native linux windows even tho its an emulation it looks cleaner, but I had issues getting my gpu to work and even if it does I think your linux screen goes black when in use, it was just a hassle and trying to connect the gpu made me need to reset my linux install since my discrete gpu wouldnt work and I had no idea why. Worked fine til I tried to connect my discrete gpu and is very useful for cpu based programs.
This is not straightforward for the average user. There’s plenty of commercial or niche software that has no real alternative in Linux land. CAD being one - and I’m well aware of freecad, and I love it, but it ain’t a pro tool yet.
Yeah cad is not something ive ever messed with, I’ve heard it prevents many from swapping to Linux
What average user uses CAD? I think you are conflating what an average user requires.
Type of user that uses/ want to swap to linux is more likely to be into cad compared to the average window user, just more tech related hobbies
I could see that being the case. But definitely not the case where the average user needs/uses CAD. That’s a wild one.
I add it to my steam library as a local program and rely on proton. So far works perfect with no effort on my end.
But most people do use Linux; Android is the most common OS, isn’t it?
Also guess what the Internet has always run on? *Nix.
Worst take ever. Outside of Desktop, Windows gets dominated by Linux. Even on Azure, Linux is the number one OS over MS’s Windows Server. Windows is free on IoT and still Linux dominates. So what makes Desktop different? 30 years of Microsoft’s vendor lock-in strategy. All the OEMs have to invest into Windows because they have to take the volume licensing deal from Microsoft or be priced out. This ensures Windows engineering efforts for drivers, software, and testing. Because the machines were Windows, 3rd party hardware and software had to invest into Windows as well. When there is no vendor lock-in, Linux receives the money for engineering efforts and dominates Windows. Nobody complains about having Linux on their Smart TV. Right, because the money for engineering efforts are not forced to be put toward Windows. How many people are switching their Steam Deck to Windows 80%? 50%? 10%? 1%,? more like ~0.1% switch. The money is there to make a great experience and so there is almost no reason to switch. It’s only the tech nerds that are installing OSes. Average people don’t even know what Windows or Linux is. When Microsoft loses it’s lock-in strategy, Linux will take over. Nobody is choosing Windows for Desktop. It’s just what comes on the machine at the store.
I worry that for 3rd parties to put forth any effort, there needs to be incentives… which would be in the form of demand… which isn’t there yet because they don’t put any effort into it.
MS is playing a dangerous game (for them). If they turn the screws on users hard enough then Linux might gain enough market share for there to be real demand. I’m trying to get people to switch but the lack of third party support makes it a minefield sometimes.
for 3rd parties to put forth any effort, there needs to be incentives… which would be in the form of demand
I mean this is it. That’s why Microsoft’s vendor lock-in strategy has kept Windows dominant on Desktop. It guarantees money will be spent on Windows first and foremost for all these OEMs. Which guarantees 3rd party support.
If they turn the screws on users hard enough then Linux might gain enough market share for there to be real demand
Regular users wont switch to Linux until the machine comes preinstalled with Linux. Microsoft can screw over their customers and the average user will just have to take it. The average users just doesn’t know any better. Ultimately, average users need to see a machine they want to buy in a brick and mortar store. As long as Microsoft’s vendor lock-in strategy is in affect, the average user will never see a Linux machine, from your typical OEM, even to unknowingly consider. But, if Valve releases a Steam Console, they could put that machine in a brick and mortar store. Lots of regular average users would buy it for the gaming, not realizing it’s Linux. Eventually they would learn they could use the desktop mode in a pinch (same as what happened with the Steam Deck). When they realize the desktop mode works just as well as their PC, likely, they will stop buying a PC altogether. It will be like when PlayStation sold their PS2. Lots of people just bought a PS2 because it came with a DVD player. DVD player sales declined rapidly. If something similar happens with a Steam Console, Linux would have a market share 3rd party developers could not ignore. I don’t know if that would break Microsoft’s vendor lock-in strategy, but I think 10M - 20M Steam Consoles sold every year would definitely get the attention of 3rd party hardware vendors and software vendors for at least the gaming market. And all that would be supported on desktop Linux too; making it even easier for the tech nerds to switch. Then you are just waiting on the network affect to take off.
We will have to see, what unfolds in the next couple years.
Regular users wont switch to Linux until the machine comes preinstalled with Linux.
I think there is a share of enthusiasts who will be willing to give Linux a shot as Microsoft continues to turn the screws. I know someone with a steam deck that has been impressed with it and even uses discord on it from the desktop mode. Maybe not many regular users but a subset of more technical users who haven’t yet been driven to try. Add in those of us willing to suggest Linux to friends and family and then support them as “regular” users when they try to adopt it. There are also a number of smaller companies who are selling and supporting devices with Linux installed from the factory. There is a chance to start to tip the scales, maybe.
100% agree.
The incentive for consumer Linux is controlling the app store.
Google leverages its control of the app store to make money on Android. Valve has invested in Linux in order to have an alternate OS in case Windows becomes hostile.
Why don’t people use Linux? Fair question. It’s because people who don’t use Linux are stupid and lazy.
Wow, galaxy brain stuff.
It’s really the egos and superiority complexes of the Linux elitists that are preventing mass adoption.
And a distro that actually lets you use a UI for everything.
Nah. Most people who use computers would never interact with those folks.
It’s not installed by default and when things go wrong you need to fix it yourself.
People just want to use computers to do STUFF. They don’t want to think about the computers themselves.
Development led me directly to installing Linux because Windows is bad for dev…
I fell into the warm embrace of KDE and GNOME environments in 2022 and have never looked back.
