Hello fellow c/privacy members.

I’m not new to privacy related things but I had a hard time persuading my family members and friends to switch to Matrix/Element. It is a reponse to UK’s Online Security Bill and Investigative Powers Act that may soon in effect.

While it is just a preperation and planning in case those actually became law, I already face resistance from them. When I ask them would they switch, their first reaction is “Why one more app?” then follows with “That’s cumbersome.” or “I don’t want to learn a new app.” and suggest something more popular like Line, Telegram or Discord. Sometimes they would “Install WhatsApp because X is on there and he/she won’t install one more app just for you.”

What can I do to persuade them to use a new platform? Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I think I should elebroate more of what Online Security Bill and Investigative Powers Act does[1]. As far as I understand, OSB will break E2EE by require scanning data on client device, like CSAM but much more generic. IPA requires companies to submit security funcition to the government for approval before releasing, and disable such feature upon request. Apple[2], Single[3] and WhatsApp made the announancment of exiting the UK market totally or partically if two were signed into law.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/thenextweb.com/news/uk-investigatory-powers-act-default-surveillance-devices-privacy
[2] https://web.archive.org/web/www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2023/07/21/apple-threatens-to-pull-facetime-and-imessage-from-the-uk
[3] https://web.archive.org/web/20230809125823/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-65301510#2023-08-09T12:57:48+00:00

  • newhinton@kbin.social
    382·
    2 years ago

    Just a reminder, telegram is NOT secure at all. Telegram is NOT end-to-end encryptes by default, and they are not disclosing this fact peoperly, which makes them untrustworthy and not a tool against growing online surveilance

    • glasgitarrewelt@feddit.de
      6·
      2 years ago

      I can’t confirm this. For me it runs smooth and without bugs. Calls with Element are sometimes better than calls with my mobile carrier.

      But I don’t have the technical knowledge to understand why a backend in python is a bad thing. Maybe your experience with Matrix is biased because of this knowledge?

      • Hexadecimalkink@lemmy.ml
        45·
        2 years ago

        This paragraph is why you won’t convince friends and family to use Matrix. It’s still too technical for non-technical people.

        • umami_wasabi@lemmy.mlOP
          3·
          2 years ago

          I agree it is technical. However, considering if the laws are in effect, there might not be a secure option, let alone private. It means that all conversations might be under government’s watch. That’s why I’m looking for a self hostable option, that can make sure data is in my control.

          I am open to considering alternatives, but the foundation of the plan is based on the assumption that apps commonly used for secure and private conversations, such as Signal, may become insufficiently secure and private due to potential future laws or the possibility of exiting the UK market. The preferred criteria for the chosen app are that it is open source, audited, or ideally, both.

          • ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org
            1·
            2 years ago

            if it is an option to use different apps for daily chit chat and private matters, you may also take a look at Briar.
            I say it this way because you both need* to be online connected** to receive the message. It is also a bit more than a messaging app, its useful for organizing group events.

            * there is a workaround. they have a software that you can run on a regular computer that will hold the incoming messages until your phone becomes accessible, and the outgoing ones until the recipient becomes available.

            ** the app can use the internet (always through Tor), the local network (like a wifi network) and bluetooth to connect to your contacts

            • umami_wasabi@lemmy.mlOP
              1·
              2 years ago

              It would be nice to use just one app as they are the users. Not me.

              And having a computer online the whole time because one might not present is quite a deal breaker.

              • ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org
                1·
                2 years ago

                Yes, but I was telling you this option because you are concerned about laws that will outlaw encryption. If they come into effect, it could easily happen that only solutions like this will remain.

        • ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org
          3·
          2 years ago

          friends and family dont even have to think about servers. they pick the client they like, log in to their account, and thats it.

          conduit is server software, an alternative to the official python-based homeserver that is called synapse

    • umami_wasabi@lemmy.mlOP
      1·
      2 years ago

      Sad but true. However, my whole family are not there. They are the primary contacts of mine, with some friends in the mix.

  • ExtremeDullard@lemmy.sdf.org
    9·
    2 years ago

    I’m in the process of trying to convince my company to switch to Matrix. I’ve setup a test server and the execs are tepidly giving it a whirl.

    The problem is, we use Teams, Microsoft has its proverbial foot in our door, people are used to Teams and don’t really want to switch, and the company doesn’t care enough about privacy and data sovereignty to overcome the inertia and the learning curve.

    They listen politely to my arguments and they agree that it would be better if Microsoft didn’t get all our data, but ultimately they really don’t care at all.

  • MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz
    9·
    2 years ago

    1. I set up a home server with a litany of bridges.

    2. I show them all my chats from multiple platforms in one app.

    3. They ask me for an account.

      • MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz
        2·
        2 years ago

        You can also try to find an instance that already does bridging. For Finnish citizens, pikaviestin.fi is a good option, but they don’t provide accounts to non-finns.

        But no, I do not have a guide for setting this up. But you set up a homeserver, with a domain you can commit to, and once that is working, configure whatever bridges you like using their respective docs.

        And yes, it is complex. Matrix is the most complicated thing I’ve ever self-hosted. But it wasn’t untenable, and it’s been very low maintenance.

  • BitSound@lemmy.world
    8·
    2 years ago

    You could buy them a drink to install it. That’s how I got my family onto Signal. I also got my GF onto Element, but she’s also obligated to put up with my shit

  • southsamurai@sh.itjust.works
    81·
    2 years ago

    You don’t persuade them. They’ve already made their decision. Now you have to make yours. Their reasons for not wanting to switch are just as valid as yours for wanting to.

    So, you either switch and accept that some of the people in your life don’t actually care enough to come with you, or you’re the one that has to adapt to multiple apps to communicate with others. That’s really what it boils down to. Most people don’t care about the matter, and there’s a segment of people in most of our lives that don’t care about us if there’s any inconvenience involved.

    Some of them made alternate suggestions, which means they’re willing to go through some inconvenience for you, just not the specific inconvenience of having an app that only you and they will be using.

    Despite now having storage space for multiple messaging apps, people resist the idea of having more than whatever arbitrary number they’ve decided doesn’t work. In some cases, that number may be one. And the truth is that remembering who is connected via what app/service is a pain in the ass if there’s enough people in your life. Some people can’t handle that memory issue and are just going to refuse outright out of necessity.

    So, stop trying to change their minds and seek compromise. If they’re willing to switch to telegram, you can at least have some degree of encryption, so go with that for anyone that’s expressed willingness. Let that core group become the reason for anyone else to join in.

    Unless you just want to play hardball and refuse to communicate with anyone on anything but your choice. There will be some that cave and join in. But you’d be amazed how many people and which people don’t really want to talk to you enough to do so. But you’ll have a small group of people that are now using it with you. You’ll have to help them get set up, and be prepared for the inevitable tech support you’re volunteering to provide, as well as the need to guide them through the learning curve of it.

  • Agility0971@lemmy.world
    6·
    2 years ago

    “Installing APP does not require you to switch to it nor asking friends and family to use it. What it does is allowing them to reach out to you in a private way. By installing it you respect and support their choice of avoiding BAD_APP.”

    On the sidenote: Just recommend Signal. It uses phone number as identifier, easy to grow by using phone book, has good track record when glowies have a warrant and most importantly it’s stable. It has flaws (no sms, not saving chat history) but there are no other alternatives available yet that beat signal for normies.

    • umami_wasabi@lemmy.mlOP
      1·
      2 years ago

      They are using Signal. I want to switch to Matrix/Element because the new laws might make Signal (and other viable chat apps) unavailable in the UK anymore.

  • kworpy@lemm.eeEnglish
    4·
    2 years ago

    If they don’t want to then don’t continue trying to persuade them. Chances are they don’t care about privacy anyway, and even if they do, everyone has their own personal preferences.

  • mishimaenjoyer@kbin.social
    3·
    2 years ago

    i tried and i failed. not because my friends didn’t want to switch, but because the software is hillariously bad. problems with the encryption left and right, smaller instances having downtimes multiple times a week (what’s the use of a federated service if anyone only uses the same one server?), buggy clients - after a few months we shut it down and moved to threema for groupchats.

  • tsl@lemmy.sdf.org
    1·
    2 years ago

    I’ve been using Matrix/Element for around three years. I have there my family, a couple of friends and a couple of services that use it for alert, information. I host a non-federated server on a VPS in Germany. My approach has been simple: do you want to chat with me? Use Matrix. Otherwise, call me or send me emails.

    If privacy is important for you, then make it a priority.

  • poVoq@slrpnk.net
    0·
    2 years ago

    Sorry to break it to you, but Matrix is (for all practical purposes) run by a UK based company. If you are concerned about UK legislation, they are one of the worst to switch to as they will likely have little choice but to comply.

    Better use XMPP, which is fully independent of any single company running everything behind the curtains.

      • poVoq@slrpnk.net
        0·
        2 years ago

        Which is 100% controlled by the Matrix Foundation (and not an international standard like XMPP), which in turn is near 100% controlled by a single UK based company (Element/New Vector). Which makes the distinction between the company and the protocol absolutely moot. I wish it was otherwise.

        • umami_wasabi@lemmy.mlOP
          0·
          2 years ago

          I guess I can just remove such code if they ever implement it as the home server is open sourced (Synapse). Plus other implementation exists (Conduit). Still, I will have a look on XMPP and see if it meets my needs. As others points out, I shouldn’t persuade but adapt thus I need bridges to connect other services, which Matrix isn’t lack of.

          • EngineerGaming@feddit.nl
            0·
            2 years ago

            I preferred xmpp because it’s easier to host and consumes MUCH less RAM than a Matrix server. idk how both of them scale, but I only have myself and a few friends and family on my XMPP server and works fine.