• force@lemmy.world
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      English phonology, American English dialects’ (and other dialects’) /r/ is usually pronounced retracted, post-alveolar/pre-palatal (usually bunched/molar), transcribed something like [ɹ̠ᶹ], so it causes alveolar consonants in the same cluster to retract/palatalize, usually into a post-alveolar affricate ([d͡ʒ] – the “j” sound for voiced stop /d/, [t͡ʃ] – the “ch” sound for voiceless stop /t/, [ʃ] – the “sh” sound for voiceless fricative /s/). The term would be assimilation (of place of articulation).

      “Dragon” /dræ.gən/ -> [dɹ̠æ.ɡɪ̈n] -> [d̠ʒɹ̠æ.ɡ(ɪ̈)n]

      You can see the same thing with words like “tree” /tri/ -> [t̠ʃɹ̠i] or even “street” /strit/ -> [ʃt̠ɹ̠it]

      Would explain simpler but can’t, break ends now, just know its because consonant pronounced in different place in mouth is conforming to being pronounced in the same place in mouth as other consonant that is right beside it (like with “in-” vs “im-”, “impractical”, which notably isn’t “inpractical”, or “incandescent” which notably isn’t “imcandascent”, or “indecisive” etc. etc.)

        • Stoneykins [any]@mander.xyz
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          They made almost no attempt to put it in layman’s terms, which means as an explanation it is not very helpful unless you already know enough about the topic to not need to ask about it in the first place. Correct and unhelpful. But I guess they were busy.

            • ALostInquirer@lemm.ee
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              What would be a good place to start with IPA? Going off Wikipedia’s pages on the matter is like Force’s comment, well-intentioned but not a great intro as you flit back & forth across the tables making sense of it.

              I also vaguely remember a similar experience with physical dictionaries, which I think tend to have some kind of IPA (or related) pronunciation guide in them. It’s been awhile since I’ve used one though, hence the foggy memory, and some online dictionaries seem to have given up on showing IPA pronunciation guides.

              • force@lemmy.world
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                this small 3-part video series is a good place to start:

                part 1: https://youtu.be/xMEFr7ghMTg?si=08I3vCSiwQC4Iuve part 2: https://youtu.be/J3IO5K5ZGB4?si=u2SaJx6gv45tsI1V part 3: https://youtu.be/jkfSA4_DCfs?si=JlMkiv75njWzbG5k

                then you can just look at transcriptions in a language you speak, and/or look at the chart and try to pronounce some of the sounds (good luck for that one lmao). a good place to look/ask is r/asklinguistics, r/linguistics, r/conlangs on reddit, they’re pretty active

                one thing i should clarify now is the convention you usually see for notation using the IPA – there’s a difference between /broad/ transcription and [narrow] transcription.

                you see, the IPA can be used in many different ways – it can be used phonemically, or phonetically, or sometimes in other ways.

                Phonetically means the symbols represent phones. Phones are distinct sounds, they are a specific way of articulating/pronouncing/using your articulators (articulators being the things you use to pronounce stuff, e.g. your tongue or lips or vocal cords). Usually you will represent more phonetic transcription using brackets [ ] (narrow transcription).

                Phonemically means the symbols represent phonemes. Usually more phonemic transcriptions are represented with slashes / / (broad transcription). Phonemes are sounds that carry meaning in a language – i.e., a phoneme is something that if you replace with another phoneme, speakers perceive that as a different word. A phoneme is generally made up of multiple phones, called allophones, all of which are different phonetically but the speaker of the language perceives them as the same thing – in fact the thing I described in this thread is a great example of that!

                “Dragon” in English is made up of six phonemes, /ˈdræ.gən/ – /d/ the “d” sound in English, /r/ (also written /ɹ/) the “r” sound in English, /æ/ the “a” sound in “cat” or “ask” in English, /g/ the “g” sound, /ə/ the schwa sound/reduced vowel as in the “a” in “about” or the “u” in “medium”, /n/ the “n” sound. /ˈ/ means the following syllable has primary stress (in English that would usually mean pronouncing it with fortis – louder/more tense, and with a higher pitch than the rest of the syllables). /./ is a syllable boundary, it demarcates the end of the previous syllable and the beginning of the next syllable. /ˌ/ would be secondary stress. Often times the primary stress symbol is omitted if it’s in the first syllable.

                When you write /dræ.gən/, that’s kind of a “template” made of phonemes that are good for describing a wide variety of dialects’ sounds – it’d be very cumbersome to try to write an extremely narrow, phonetic transcription of dozens of dialects’ pronunciations every time you want to describe a word; using broad transcription, you can then leave it to the reader to further break it down into more specific, precise transcriptions whenever they care about a specific dialect.

                So let’s break it down – in my dialect, /r/ is pronounced as a post-alevolar approximant – that is, pronouncing with a continuous flow of air with the tongue behind the alveolar ridge (the bump on the roof of your mouth behind your teeth) and not touching the roof of the mouth as to not cause as much obstruction. This would be transcribed as [ɹ̠] or [ɹ˗], the symbol for the alveolar approximant plus the diacritic for retraction (pronouncing further behind in the mouth). A lot of the times, the /r/ sound in a lot of dialects may be transcribed as [ɻ] – retroflex, generally meaning post-alveolar/pre-palatal with a tongue curled upwards, or even [ɹ̈] which uses the “centralized” diacritic to represent “bunched r” which is post-alveolar/pre-palatal and has the sides of the tongue spread out towards the molars and a strange-looking orientation/curl of the tongue called “bunching” (a sound found in very few languages, I believe only English and Dutch, and which is the realization in my dialect). You can use more symbols to be even more precise, e.g. add [ʷ] (labialized) or [ᶹ] (labiovelarized) since English /ɹ/ is often pronounced with labial constriction (constriction/tenseness using both lips) or labiovelar constriction (using the bottom lip and upper teeth).

                So right off the bat, you can change it to [dɹ̠æ.ɡən]. The /d/ forms a consonant cluster with the /r/, which means it’s pronounced with no vowels or pauses in between them – since the [ɹ̠] is post-alveolar, it influences consonants in the proximity which have a nearby/relatively close place of articulation to shift towards / assimilate to its place of articulation. In a lot of dialects, this causes /dɹ̠/ to simply become [d̠ɹ̠], with both of them being post-alveolar. But in my speech, it goes even further and the /d/ affricates into [d̠͡ʒ] called the voiced post-alveolar affricate which is the “j” sound. Often a change like this is called “palatalization” because the consonant shifts towards a palatal pronunciation (palatal referring to the hard palate, the place of articulation of /j/ the palatal approximant which is the “y” sound in English), in this case becoming pre-palatal [dʒ]. But you shan’t confuse this with the other use of “palatalized/palatalization”, which is when a sound is pronounced with partial constriction at the (hard) palate, often transcribed with superscript /ʲ/ following the consonant (e.g. /kʲ/), although often times a palatalized consonant does shift towards a palatal pronunciation.

                So then we have [d̠͡ʒɹ̠æ.ɡən]. Lastly, in my dialect /ə/ in certain contexts behind consonants often becomes [ɪ] – a near-close near-front vowel, similar to the “i” in “bit” or “industry” – or [ɪ̈] sometimes called “schwi” which is similar but more centralized.

                So finally we have [d̠͡ʒɹ̠æ.ɡɪ̈n] or even more specifically [ˈd̠͡ʒɹ̠ᶹæ.ɡɪ̈n]. That would be an accurate way to phonetically transcribe how I say “dragon”.

                Some speakers may take reducing the /ə/ even further and delete it entirely, instead pronouncing the last syllable as [gn̩] – the line under the “n” meaning it’s syllabic, which means that it’s the nucleus of the syllable (the nucleus being the center of/only necessary part of the syllable, where a vowel would usually be), pronouncing the second syllable with no vowel. Then, you might see even more change with speakers assimilating the “n” to the place of articulation of the “g”, making it a velar (pronounced at the velum, also called the soft palate) nasal, which would make the last syllable [gŋ̍].

                And you would perceive all this as the word “dragon”, even if you pronounce it differently than I do. That’s the beauty of language. You might use different phones in the same context as me, but at the end of the day they’re the allophones of the same phonemes.

                Now you may ask, how the hell do linguists type this stuff conveniently? The answer is, they don’t, it can be a pain in the ass to find a tool to conveniently type for linguistics because there’s just so many symbols, often times you use something like an online IPA typing tool or google gboard on android.

            • Stoneykins [any]@mander.xyz
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              1 year ago

              I understood it, after I googled a lot of what they said. And I’m not trying to give them shit, they made an effort to be helpful, it just wasn’t really.

                • Stoneykins [any]@mander.xyz
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                  I mean the quality of an explanation is a matter of opinion. I already admitted it was a technically correct explanation, but I stand by my opinion. You can disagree but have failed to convince me to think otherwise.

      • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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        Okay, I think I get it. When I say “dr-” the r is made with the tip of my tongue just behind my front teeth, but when I say “jr-” (like in badger), the r is made with the middle of my tounge in the middle of my mouth. Neat!

      • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
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        I love seeing linguists on Lemmy. Wish we had a bigger community.

        To put it in layman’s terms just focus on explaining that J is often [d͡ʒ] which already has a D sound in it.

    • Sagifurius@lemm.ee
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      I’m thinking it’s a regional thing and this guy is from my general region, it’s totally a thing out here. The letter “T” is really only useful on paper, people use “D” when they speak for the most part for “T” (except for T’s followed by an “h”), and “J” is any “D” when followed by an “r”. Side note, i found it jarring when I was younger and saw a Superman cartoon for the first time, and all the characters were pronouncing “Luthor” as “Luthor”, not “Luther”

      • kase@lemmy.world
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        Haha same here. And to add onto the Luthor bit, everyone I know pronounces “-or” and “-er” words as “-ir”. Pretty much everybody agrees it sounds stupid, but nobody has the power to stop it.

        • Sagifurius@lemm.ee
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          I mean, we don’t think it sounds stupid, it’s just normal. I’d not have noticed if i hadn’t spent so long abroad, where people though my accent was peculiar, and later laughed often when they’d hear my voice revert halfway through overheard phone calls home. That and owning a bar in my home region and often listening to the wildly different accents people rolling through. Englishmen berating me for my pronunciation of words like “Wilstshire” and “Cheshire”, “Jaguar”, “Brown Sauce” while they order a Kokanee but pronounce it “Cocainee”

    • isthingoneventhis@lemmy.world
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      Pretend like you’re french: j’ragon. It’s the second G in garage or however you would say au jou sauce.

      eta: if you’re pronouncing dragon and jragon the same, I’m really concerned and alarmed.

        • isthingoneventhis@lemmy.world
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          It was more like “french” how Americans think french is, sadly not actual french. It was to overemphasize the starting sound, since sometimes it’s hard to isolate sounds and move them around like that (mouth position wise) when you don’t commonly have other words that start with those sounds.

  • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
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    How I wish for the day English decides to upend everything and go phonetic with a truncated alphabet and word modernization.

    We’d then go to World Standard Time. It’s 13:00 everywhere, not just in specific time zones. We then go to a Year 12023 Human Era International Fixed calendar.

    • usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca
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      I’m with you for the alphabet and human era, but what’s the thing about timezones? We’d still have to keep track of each area’s normal waking/business hours, but it’d be less standardized and harder to remember unless there’s something I’m missing.

      • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
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        The time zone thing means if the time on your clock reads 00:00 hours, it’s 00:00 hours everywhere.

        That means if I say I have a meeting at 14:00 with someone in China while I live in the USA, there’s no conversion. It’s 14:00 everywhere. Every clock reads the same. I know when to be on the call.

        All it does is change what time people arbitrarily ‘Get up’, ‘Fall asleep’, ‘start school’ etc.

        Say we arbitrarily say 00:00 is what ‘midnight’ would be in Britain at the Prime Meridian.

        That means nothing really changes for Britain. But in Central Time USA, 00:00 means it’s when we’re just starting dinner.

        No daylight savings times anywhere. Work places can set their own work times however they want. Nobody gets confused about having to convert time to different time zones for logistics which is the biggest benefit. If the ISS says it’ll be over New York City at 13:37, I’ll know exactly when to turn on my HAM radio.

        I’d wake up at 13:00, get breakfast, be into work at 14:00. Get home at 22:00, etc.

        • usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca
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          There’d still be “timezones” where the divisions on what times everyone lives by are drawn, right? Like, in this state business hours are 14:00 to 22:00, and over at this other place it’s 00:00 to 08:00. For simplicity and commerce those boundaries would likely look very much like timezones…

          You’ll still need to convert to the local time like we do now in order to know what part of the day that time is, but instead of doing that conversion once, you’ll then you do it for all sorts of things and keep track of all the different times everything is in that other place too. Currently, you can look up the time it is somewhere (or add/subtract a number of hours if you’re old-school) and when you see it’s 8am, you know it’s morning there. If there are no timezones, knowing it’s 8am doesn’t actually tell you anything anymore.

      • CoggyMcFee@lemmy.world
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        Plus a bunch of people would have the day turn over into the next day in the middle of the work day, which would be pretty inconvenient.

        • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
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          How so? Becky, I need you on that zoom call on Wednesday, 00:30 with our distributor Carlos in Mexico, the tax agent Amahle in South Africa, and our ship Captain who’s currently in Malaysia.

          No confusion. Everyone knows what time they need to turn on the PC.

          No conversions for PC times, no shipping time charts, none of it.

      • ornery_chemist@mander.xyz
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        aɪ noː jɚ ˈbiːɪŋ fəˈsiːʃəs, bʌt ˈɪŋglɪʃ ˈvɑʊəlz ɛsˈpɛʃəli kən biː ə ˈɹiːəl ˈklʌstɚfʌk. ɪf ə wɚd ɪz tə biː ˌjunɪˈvɚsəli ˈɹɛkəgnaɪzd baɪ ɪts ˈspɛlɪŋ, ðɛn ðə ˈspɛlɪŋ wɪl nɑt ˈfeɪθfəli ˌɹɛpɹɪˈzɛnt mɛni ˈpiplz pɹəˌnʌnsiˈeɪʃənz… so nɑʊ ju hæv ðə seɪm ˈpɹɑbləm æz bəˈfoɹ ɛkˈsɛpt wɪθ ˈhɑrdɚ-tə-taɪp ˈlɛtɚz.

        ʃwɑ ɪn pɑɹˈtɪkulɚ ɪz ə hoːl ˈʃɪtʃoː ɑn ɪts oːn

        ɑn ðæt noːt, gɛs weɹ aɪ gɹuː ʌp :)

      • YTG123@feddit.ch
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        Not really, because of accent differences. The best you could do is account for all phonemes distinguished across standardized varieties, regardless of their phonetic realization. Of course, you couldn’t possibly account for all of them (e.g. distinguishing the Australian /æ/ vs /æː/ would be troublesome for British and American speakers).

        Hīr’z æn icsperimentăl sistăm ðæt s̄ūd würc ăcros SSBI (SSBE) ænd DĂ (GAmerican). Æz jū cæn sī, homăfounz ār spelt aidenticăly, wīc fōrmz ārn’t rităn æt ōl, ænd plein vauălz ār dz̄enărăly jūz’d wið ðēr Roumæns saundz.

        Strüt-Fut-Gūs-Cjur-Für Cit-Flīs-Nīr-Fir-Hæpy Dres-Feis-Scwēr-Fern Træp-Mauþ-Prais-Baþ-Pām-Stārt Cloþ-Ts̄ois-Löt-Þōt-Nōrþ Cömă-Letăr (tuc ðæt wün from Roumeiniăn)

    • JimVanDeventer@lemmy.world
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      How I wish for the day English decides to upend everything and go phonetic with a truncated alphabet and word modernization.

      Also, drop the whole uppercase and lowercase nonsense. Just pick one!

      • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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        Not gonna lie, I like the cases if only to make scanning for proper nouns easier. The capital letters stick out. Maybe keep caps only for proper nouns.

        • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
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          I was having this debate a week ago when dealing with those strange proper noun cases like departments in an organization. They’re sorta proper nouns, but then when generalized it goes back lowercase. Security Department vs security escorted them out of the building.

          Having cursive, lower, and upper cases is really dumb though.

          We could just add a new letter to denote a proper noun? Kick it up to modern relevancy with the @ or #? Lol.

          MAYBE DO IT SPANISH STYLE AND SURROUND IT? @JOHN SMITH #JOHN SMITH#

          No more having to use shift regularly.

          • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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            There’s definitely some weirdness in that. I feel like it’s an edge case, though, and could just say to either refer to them as the full Security Department, or capitalize Security as well. Or go the German route and just capitalize all nouns, they’re usually the most important part of a written sentence anyway.

            Thinking about it further, there are a few use cases for caps in readability. Abbreviated, for example, so they’re not interpreted as a word. I think the only one I really struggle with WRT capitalization is the arbitrary capitalization of beginning words.

    • Sagifurius@lemm.ee
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      man like a billion people over 6 continents speak English. HTF is that gonna happen? Whole thing is crowd sourced as fuck.

      • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
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        Why would that change anything? Standard English is already the bar which it’s based on. Do you think other phonetic languages like Korean don’t have dialects?

        Just because the UK’s ability to speak English is fucked doesn’t mean the written language doesn’t have to be lol.

        • TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee
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          well Korean does have that issue in some cases, such as 잎 being pronounced 닢. and it is standardized based on Seoul hemegony, while southern dialects speak differently from how it’s written. and then you have jeju dialect (jeju language) which is a whole other beast

    • otp@sh.itjust.works
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      I believe it’s called affrication – changing a stop to a fricative.

      T can become “ch”, and d can become a “j” sound.

      This can happen in some North American accents when you have a T or D followed by an r or a y sound.

      Train might sound like Chrain*, Drain might sound like Jrain.

      My favourite is “Tuesday”, where some people add a y before the “oo” sound, and it becomes “Chewsday”. Or “Chewsdi” if they shorten the “day” to “dee”.

      The “y” before “oo” can also happen in words like news and tube, giving us a potential for “Chyoob” instead of “tube”.

      I’ve found that t to ch before r is more common among Gen X and younger, and Boomers tend to only make the change before y. But Gen X and younger tend to not have the y in words like “tube”, so that comes up less often.

      D to J before r seems to be pretty common in all ages.

      Getting people to hear the difference can be hard, especially if they’re self conscious about it. If you can get someone to say “Dane” and “Drain” (without saying the words yourself), then you can probably hear the difference…as long as they don’t know that you’re listening for a dr => jr sound change. Most people, even those who make tr => chr and dr => jr naturally are still capable of producing pure “tr” and “dr” if they try.

        • otp@sh.itjust.works
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          I wouldn’t call it grotesque. “t” and “ch” are very similar sounds, phonetically.

          I think we’re all okay with language change, unless you’re pronouncing the k in “knife”, the p in pterodactyl, and the gh in “laugh” glottally instead of like an “f”.

      • pete_the_cat@lemmy.world
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        I never noticed that since I’m from the North East, but that definitely comes from our British ancestors. I always laugh at Simon Whistler (from his many YouTube channels) when he says “tube” because it definitely sounds like “chewb” 😂

      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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        You don’t want to hear about my hard D? Why not? Is there some reason why I shouldn’t talk about it? Very well, would you like me to show you it?

      • PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocksB
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        Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

        This

        Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

        I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.

  • Cosmicomical@lemmy.world
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    English language doesn’t have an alphabet - change my mind (especially british, but american only made one step in the right direction and then stopped)

  • Resol van Lemmy@lemmy.world
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    I don’t know why I can actually tell the difference phonetically between “dragon” and “jragon”, maybe I just pronounce things weirdly.

  • HiramFromTheChi@lemmy.world
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    In high school, I wrote a play for my creative writing class where I named the main character Jrue—named after Jrue Holiday, one of my favorite basketball players.

    I remember the teacher got a kick out of it.