cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/65824884
Hey everyone
We’re really sorry to say this, but lemm.ee will be shutting down on June 30, 2025.
What you need to know
As of now:
- New user registrations are disabled
- Creating new communities is disabled
What you should do:
- You can export your settings at https://lemm.ee/settings to take them with you to another instance.
- If you’re moving to another instance, consider adding a note to your lemm.ee profile with your new username. Your old profile will still be visible from other instances even after we go offline.
- Alternatively, if you want to delete your lemm.ee profile, now is the best time to do it, so the deletion can federate out before we go offline.
- If you’re one of the folks supporting us with a recurring donation, please remember to cancel it (Ko-Fi donations should have been cancelled automatically already). Our leftover funds are already enough to cover our bills for next month, so we can keep things running without any more support.
Because of how Lemmy is built, everything posted on lemm.ee will still be accessible from other instances, even after we go offline.
Why this is happening
The key reason is that we just don’t have enough people on the admin team to keep the place running. Most of the admin team has stepped down, mostly due to burnout, and finding replacements hasn’t worked out.
The sad reality is that while there are a lot of great people on Lemmy, there are also some who use the platform to attack others, stir up conflict, or actively try to undermine the project. Admins are volunteers who deal with the latter group on a constant basis, this takes a mental toll. Please understand why our admins chose to step down, and be kind to the admins on whatever instance you decide to join.
We know this sucks. We’re genuinely sorry it’s ending like this. Thank you to everyone who spent time here and helped make it better.
– lemm.ee team
The OP has comments disabled and it didn’t seem right to not say thank you and goodbye.
To the entire team past and present at lemm.ee- Thank you for the time and resources you poured into this platform. You will undoubtedly be missed.
why are comments even disabled in the first place?
Probably because if they were enabled it would be filled with people soapboxing about their irrelevant hobbyhorses or offering to help just to keep the instance alive. Neither are useful or relevant. If people wanted the instance to survive then they should have been volunteering months ago, not at 11:59 on the Doomsday Clock.
its probably because its just an important announcement post they plan to pin for the whole month and they dont want it to get filled with people talking in it which could led to the comment derailing the discussion
… They are literally saying they don’t have admins/mods enough. You want to strain your mods? Allowing comments on that sort of post is how you do that.
it could have been a cool free 4 all like in the good old internet times xD
Yeah sure its all fun and games until people start posting csam.
“Think of the kids”
Seriously, I have enough of people using this kind of reasoning for censoring everything and having strong moderation. I’m pretty sure nearly no one does that
then block them with your user power. i dont see the problem?
The problem, besides that just being gross, is that hosting csam is a very serious crime in most places. Leaving that unmoderated can very easily end with alphabet agencies from around the world shutting down lemmy instances.
Thank you and the admin team, past and present, for their time and care.
Ahh, this is really sad. Lemm.ee was always an instance that shined brightly, and @[email protected] has helped me out a couple of times.
Sad day indeed.
This instance will live on. Definitely understand the burnout and hope @[email protected] and the other volunteers here stick around.
The settings import / export feature is extremely cool.
Reminds me of the many times I was banned from reddit for no good reason and then had to reset every one of my subs. So much easier, and just goes to back up the decentralized philosophy of lemmy.
It was the first foray into the fediverse and helped wean me off reddit. Sad to see it go.
Sail into the sunset lemm.ee
You will be missed
I literally just woke up and opened Lemmy to see this. As a lemm.ee user this is sad news but I respect the decision of all those involved as they navigate this
What a loss. =(
It’s a strange quirk of lemmy that we will continue to be able to see content from lemm.ee even after they’ve shut down. It’ll feel like seeing ghosts.
A lot of the internet has been lost to time already so I actually appreciate this place having this kind of permanence.
By the way, I wonder if new instances will still see those. I believe not if they were posted on a lemm.ee community
Your correct. Lemm.ee’s ghosts will only live on in the instances around during it’s life.
Kind of like humans after they die. You still live on in the memories of those who knew you.
It doesn’t have to be that way.
Check FEP-ef61. https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/fep/ef61/fep-ef61.md
I get blocked from these links I dunno why. It’s very frustrating.
Interesting, what browser are you using?
Anyway, its written in markdown.
The contents of FEP-ef61.
FEP-ef61: Portable Objects
Summary
Portable [ActivityPub][ActivityPub] objects with server-independent IDs.
Motivation
Usage of HTTP(S) URLs as identifiers has a major drawback: when the server disappears, everyone who uses it loses their identities and data.
The proposed solution should satisfy the following constraints:
- User’s identity and data should not be tied to a single server.
- Users should have a choice between full control over their identity and data, and delegation of control to a trusted party.
- Implementing the solution in existing software should be as simple as possible. Changes to ActivityPub data model should be kept to a minimum.
- The solution should be compatible with existing and emerging decentralized identity and storage systems.
- The solution should be transport-agnostic.
History
Nomadic identity mechanism makes identity independent from a server and was originally part of the Zot federation protocol.
Streams (2021) made nomadic accounts available via the Nomad protocol, which supported ActivityStreams serialisation.
FEP-c390 (2022) introduced a decentralized identity solution compatible with ActivityPub. It enabled permissionless migration of followers between servers, but didn’t provide full data portability.
Requirements
The key words “MUST”, “MUST NOT”, “REQUIRED”, “SHALL”, “SHALL NOT”, “SHOULD”, “SHOULD NOT”, “RECOMMENDED”, “MAY”, and “OPTIONAL” in this document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC-2119][RFC-2119].
Identifiers
An [ActivityPub][ActivityPub] object can be made portable by using an identifier that is not tied to a single server. This proposal describes a new identifier type that has this property and is compatible with the [ActivityPub] specification.
ap:// URLs
ap://
URL is constructed according to the [URI][RFC-3986] specification, but with a [Decentralized Identifier][DID] in place of the authority:ap://did:example:123456/path/to/object?name=value#fragment-id \_/ \________________/ \____________/ \________/ \_________/ | | | | | scheme authority path query fragment
- The URI scheme MUST be
ap
. - The authority component MUST be a valid [DID].
- The path is REQUIRED. It MUST be treated as an opaque string.
- The query is OPTIONAL. To avoid future conflicts, implementers SHOULD NOT use parameter names that are not defined in this proposal.
- The fragment is OPTIONAL.
[!NOTE] ActivityPub specification [requires][ActivityPub-ObjectIdentifiers] identifiers to have an authority “belonging to that of their originating server”. The authority of ‘ap’ URL is a DID, which does not belong to any particular server.
[!WARNING] The URI scheme might be changed to
ap+ef61
in a future version of this document, because these identifiers are not intended to be used for all ActivityPub objects, but only for portable ones.DID methods
Implementers MUST support the [did:key] method. Other DID methods SHOULD NOT be used, as it might hinder interoperability.
[!NOTE] The following additional DID methods are being considered: did:web, did:dns, did:webvh (formerly
did:tdw
) and did:fedi.DID documents SHOULD contain Ed25519 public keys represented as verification methods with
Multikey
type (as defined in the [Controlled Identifiers][Multikey] specification).Any [DID URL][DID-URL] capabilities of a DID method MUST be ignored when working with
ap://
URLs.Dereferencing ap:// URLs
To dereference an
ap://
URL, the client MUST make HTTP GET request to a gateway endpoint at [well-known] location/.well-known/apgateway
. Theap://
prefix MUST be removed from the URL and the rest of it appened to a gateway URL. The client MUST specify anAccept
header with theapplication/ld+json; profile="https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams"
media type.Example of a request to a gateway:
GET https://social.example/.well-known/apgateway/did:key:z6MkrJVnaZkeFzdQyMZu1cgjg7k1pZZ6pvBQ7XJPt4swbTQ2/path/to/object
ActivityPub objects identified by
ap://
URLs can be stored on multiple servers simultaneously.If object identified by
ap://
URL is stored on the server, it MUST return a response with status200 OK
containing the requested object. The value of aContent-Type
header MUST beapplication/ld+json; profile="https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams"
.If object identified by
ap://
URL is not stored on the server, it MUST return404 Not Found
.If object is not public, the server MUST return
404 Not Found
unless the request has a HTTP signature and the signer is allowed to view the object.[!NOTE] This document describes web gateways, which use HTTP transport. However, the data model and authentication mechanism are transport-agnostic and other types of gateways could exist.
Authentication and authorization
Authentication and authorization are performed in accordance with [FEP-fe34] origin-based security model.
The [origin][RFC-6454] of an
ap://
URL is computed by the following algorithm:- Let
uri-scheme
be theap
string. - Let
uri-host
be the authority component of the URL. - Let
uri-port
be the number 0. - Return the triple
(uri-scheme, uri-host, uri-port)
.
And the origin of a [DID URL][DID-URL] is computed by the following algorithm:
- Let
uri-scheme
be theap
string. - Let
uri-host
be the DID component of the DID URL. - Let
uri-port
be the number 0. - Return the triple
(uri-scheme, uri-host, uri-port)
.
Actors, activities and objects identified by
ap://
URLs MUST contain [FEP-8b32] integrity proofs. Collections identified byap://
URLs MAY contain integrity proofs. If collection doesn’t contain an integrity proof, another authentication method MUST be used.The value of
verificationMethod
property of the proof MUST be a [DID URL][DID-URL] where the DID matches the authority component of theap://
URL.[!NOTE] This document uses terms “actor”, “activity”, “collection” and “object” according to the classification given in [FEP-2277].
Portable actors
One identity (represented by [DID]) can control multiple actors (which are differentiated by the path component of an
ap://
URL).An actor object identified by
ap://
URL MUST have agateways
property containing an ordered list of gateways where the latest version of that actor object can be retrieved. Each item in the list MUST be an HTTP(S) URL with empty path, query and fragment components. The list MUST contain at least one item.Gateways are expected to be the same for all actors under a DID authority and MAY be also specified in the DID document as [services][DID-Services].
Example:
{ "@context": [ "https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams", "https://w3id.org/security/data-integrity/v1", "https://w3id.org/fep/ef61" ], "type": "Person", "id": "ap://did:key:z6MkrJVnaZkeFzdQyMZu1cgjg7k1pZZ6pvBQ7XJPt4swbTQ2/actor", "inbox": "ap://did:key:z6MkrJVnaZkeFzdQyMZu1cgjg7k1pZZ6pvBQ7XJPt4swbTQ2/actor/inbox", "outbox": "ap://did:key:z6MkrJVnaZkeFzdQyMZu1cgjg7k1pZZ6pvBQ7XJPt4swbTQ2/actor/outbox", "gateways": [ "https://server1.example", "https://server2.example" ], "proof": { "type": "DataIntegrityProof", "cryptosuite": "eddsa-jcs-2022", "created": "2023-02-24T23:36:38Z", "verificationMethod": "did:key:z6MkrJVnaZkeFzdQyMZu1cgjg7k1pZZ6pvBQ7XJPt4swbTQ2#z6MkrJVnaZkeFzdQyMZu1cgjg7k1pZZ6pvBQ7XJPt4swbTQ2", "proofPurpose": "assertionMethod", "proofValue": "..." } }
Location hints
When ActivityPub object containing a reference to another actor is being constructed, implementations SHOULD provide a list of gateways where specified actor object can be retrieved. This list MAY be provided using the
gateways
query parameter. Each gateway address MUST be URL-endcoded, and if multiple addresses are present they MUST be separated by commas.Example:
ap://did:key:z6MkrJVnaZkeFzdQyMZu1cgjg7k1pZZ6pvBQ7XJPt4swbTQ2/actor?gateways=https%3A%2F%2Fserver1.example,https%3A%2F%2Fserver2.example
This URL indicates that object can be retrieved from two gateways:
https://server1.example
https://server2.example
Implementations MUST discard query parameters when comparing
ap://
identifiers and treat identifiers with different query parameter values as equal.Inboxes and outboxes
Servers and clients MUST use gateways to deliver activities to inboxes or outboxes. Servers specified in the
gateways
property of an actor object MUST accept POST requests to respective gateway URLs.Example:
POST https://social.example/.well-known/apgateway/did:key:z6MkrJVnaZkeFzdQyMZu1cgjg7k1pZZ6pvBQ7XJPt4swbTQ2/actor/inbox
Delivered activities might be not portable. If delivered activity is portable (has
ap://
identifier), the server MUST verify its [FEP-8b32] integrity proof. If the server does not accept deliveries on behalf of an actor, it MUST return405 Method Not Allowed
.ActivityPub clients MAY follow [FEP-ae97][FEP-ae97] to publish activities. In this case
Safari ios. Thank you for the copy
Really nice that they’re doing a sunset period with advance warning instead of just randomly going dark. As Lemmy’s first major “shutdown” we need to accept that this sort of thing seems inevitable from time to time, maybe this can set an example and open a conversation on how to handle this sort of situation in the future. I’d hope this creates some pressure to Fediverse developers to improve portability for users (and communities!) moving between instances, maybe even some kind of immigration/emigration mode for people or communities who want to apply to transfer their account and history rather than simply sign up a new account while posting a link from their old account. Federation should be able to do better than that.
and they don’t support voyager
Voyager doesn’t support them
Holy shit, that was unexpected.
It really wasn’t, sadly.
The site founder put in an incredible amount of work setting the place up (something like 10 support servers at US$200/mo), but also tried to be lead admin for a year+, and that’s typically an extremely tough double-job to do well on a big, popular site / place. In his various posts he sometimes talked about all the vile content and destructive users the sub-admins had to deal with on an ongoing basis, and it certainly sounds like that burned out the whole volunteer staff in the end.
From my own POV, and something I noticed from the beginning here, is that in the wake of Reddit (and other places) treating its users as assets, it was important to grow a userbase across the Lemmysphere and Fediverse with a strong community spirit. To me that means more participation, more content-creation, and more willingness to be civil and cooperate. Not that these things didn’t happen to a significant extent, but it seems like a lot of .ee users and visitors, while willing to hang out at the place, were moreso just willing to soak up the content without putting in much effort to help make the place work. Or even just being toxic and destructive, as above.
A lot more could be said and debated about the whole situation, but sites like Reddit, as draconian as they might be at times, and whatever their other flaws, have proven that they’ve been able to establish a system that works stably over the long haul.
Me, I love the idea of the FV, and for that very reason have put in almost two years of hard work in to my own project on .ee, but I’m very unsure about the long-term healthy function of the Lemmysphere in particular. More specifically, trying to migrate my project to another instance before .ee shuts down would be a herculean task AFAIK, especially with my having significant new health issues recently.
So, yeah. :/
the problem is the people who have trolled, spammed on reddit with right wing propaganda/ or pro-israeli also fled to lemmy causing problems here too. reddit now is just overmoderating to the point its not usable for most people now. reddit used to be a good place to go to, but they have been banning people so easily now, you cant even create a account without getting shadowbanned for some people.
I think people really underestimate how much work it is to maintain a community online. It’s something that is so outside of my skillset and capabilities that I feel awe when I see it done successfully.
I think somebody shoukd do an academic study on Lemmy, how it differs from Reddit, its weaknesses, and why it might be failing. So that there is a definitive cause to its weakness that can be pointed to for anyone willing to give it another shot.
Secondly, I think it might be a good idea for the admins of the servers to have a video call. This will make the (at least admin) community feel much more personal in a way that comment threads cannot and will lead to a stronger sense of community. Actually I’m impressed that Lemmy as a project has made it this far without the developers having ever been able to plan the project together in a group.
How is this failing? If lemm.ee was a traditional forum it’d be over, but because of federation everything lives on.
From my own POV, and something I noticed from the beginning here, is that in the wake of Reddit (and other places) treating its users as assets, it was important to grow a userbase across the Lemmysphere and Fediverse with a strong community spirit. To me that means more participation, more content-creation, and more willingness to be civil and cooperate. Not that these things didn’t happen to a significant extent, but it seems like a lot of .ee users and visitors, while willing to hang out at the place, were moreso just willing to soak up the content without putting in much effort to help make the place work. Or even just being toxic and destructive, as above.
A lot more could be said and debated about the whole situation, but sites like Reddit, as draconian as they might be at times, and whatever their other flaws, have proven that they’ve been able to establish a system that works stably over the long haul.
I guess it’s not really surprising, though. The Lemmy userbase is much smaller and very skewed towards certain types of people with extremely strong opinions and low levels of tolerance for anything that goes against their worldview. I don’t think reddit is necessarily doing anything better in that regard, it just benefits from having such a massive userbase filled with all kinds of people. The toxicity and off-topic intrusions of political/culture war stuff get drowned out over there, whereas here you’ll frequently see threads where 90% of the comments are arguing about things that are completely irrelevant to the actual topic because so much of userbase has an activist mindset that is always itching for a fight.
I don’t think reddit is necessarily doing anything better in that regard,
I’d say the big, honking difference with Reddit is that there’s a team of paid admins and staff to handle so much of the chores and unsavory occurrences that the volunteer admins & mods on the Lemmysphere have to do on their own. Also, their software is years ahead, and I strongly suspect has many more out-of-the-box tools than Lemmy has on the admin side. It’s certainly that way for the mod side, I can attest.
handle so much of the chores and unsavory occurrences that the volunteer admins & mods on the Lemmysphere have to do on their own.
Reddit was known for years to leave the moderation tasks to the volunteers admins. I’m still a mod in a quite active sub, the mod queue is around 2600 items now.
Sad to hear of your problems, but thank you for the time you did put into it! Nothing lasts forever but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t worthwhile.
so where do i go now?
And how? I came here due to full reddit ban not cause I knew anything about the platform and wanted in, it I do like the platform and I’m glad I was “forced” to try it. Except I didn’t, and don’t, know what instances are, why they matter beyond “decentralization” and I just picked one at random because I didn’t realize your “instance” could just be removed… if an instance can be removed/shut down it doesn’t seem like any instance is actually a safe place to go since it’s not depended on me but whoever is running it? You can lose your account no matter what. Idk if this means I should try to figure this out, which is just make a new account I think? Or if this is a sign for me to give up my last social media outlet and just be done with reddit/reddit clones in general
The best analogy is still E-mail. [email protected] can talk to [email protected], which can talk to [email protected]. Sometimes an email service shuts down - has anyone checked if yahoo still exists?
So in that case, you have to get a new mail and probably move your important stuff over. It sure sucks, but there is no good way around it, if you want to be able to choose between different services.
Imagine everyone using only gmail: what if Google decided you smell and they don’t want your business any more? What if Google decided to make every login cost $5? Or that you need to say “I love Coca Cola” to read your mail?
This hits so deep.
Where can I migrate to? I want a similar instance, that doesn’t block other instances, instead lets users decide what content they see on their frontpage, as how lemm.ee did it.
I’d be very glad for any suggestions…
(edit: ended up migrating to lemmy.zip . Thanks everyone for your suggestions!)
maybe thelemmy.club???, if your fine with small instances or a instance ran by one person.
If the reason EE is shutting down due to lack of staff why would anyone go to a smaller one/one run by a single person? This is incredibly likely to happen there too. I didn’t actually realize this was a thing that could even happen, I just picked an instance at random, but picking the biggest and most robust instance seems like the best way to stave this off for as long as possible.
f the reason EE is shutting down due to lack of staff why would anyone go to a smaller one/one run by a single person?
Small instances can have far less drama and workload. Just because an instance isn’t popular and has a small admin team doesn’t mean it’s in danger of folding up. 😀
It’s a fair worry.
As the admin of thelemmy.club though I will say my aim is absolutely not growth for it’s own sake. If the site starts to get larger than I want I will stop allowing signups. I welcome new users, but I’m not trying to be a big instance either.
And nothing of value was lost
I respect your craft as a troll, but… No, wait I don’t, go fuck yourself.
Looks like I’m quite late to suggest, but couldn’t we use AI to admin instances & mod communities, if not fully then at least the bulk of it? Also charge users on a freemium model so as to pay for admins / mods? Every instance needs an incentive structure to maintain a healthy & happy community and a way to pay for the operations required to run the instance.
That’s what reddit is currently doing, and look at the result. Bans left and right with no recourse
Go to facebook ir you want that, lol.
Literally, the point of all of this is to fkng have a more human internet in the first place, and you come here and say this?
you even say we should have Lemmy premium LMAO, AI and For profit are both things fully incompatible with the goal of a more human internet.
It makes me mad.
you mention AI moderation and a healthy community in the same motherfucking paragraph?
Almost as if Lemmy should not tie each community to only one specific underlying server.
Yep, I think the same.
I know that at a technical level would be hard to have common communities among instances. But it should be a goal, as it would add resiliance to the project.
Easy, Nostr does this.
Nostr has its own problems. Like you can’t easily defederate from spam servers in Nostr. Every person has to remove spammers, too, instead of an admin doing it.
Seem easy enough to fix, blocklist subscription.
That’s still a person against a bot. Spammers can spin up accounts automatically in Nostr with no verification.